08
Sep
Twitter wars: Avalanche Records vs Los Campesinos!
Here are some screenshots of a very public debate/slanging match between Edinburgh independent store Avalanche Records owner Kevin Buckle and Welsh indie-pop band Los Campesinos! last night. Probably the most entertaining thing I’ve ever seen on Twitter. Enjoy!
Follow Avalanche Records and Los Campesinos! on Twitter for more quality banter.
Pre-order the new Los Campesinos! album Hello Sadness here (if you dare).
Los Campesinos! – By Your Hand
Oran Mor, Glasgow, November 10 (tickets)
27 Responses to “Twitter wars: Avalanche Records vs Los Campesinos!”
September 8th, 2011 at 14:24
I do think Kevin has a point. Avalanche Records has always supported local bands and promoted their releases in-store, offered them in-store gigs in order to build up their fan base and reach people who may not have heard of them, and give bands a fairly decent amount of money for each record they sell on their behalf. Some people prefer to go to record shops and browse, rather than buying a record directly from the band. In recent months I’ve seen many bands who have their records on sale in places like Avalanche, Love Music, or Monorail – all offering the same music for free, or much cheaper, online. Where’s the incentive for people to buy the hard copy? Perhaps a pre-release won’t affect how many Los Campesinos records Avalanche sells, but there’s every chance that it might. As one of the more successful bands, they might not feel they owe as much to the independent record shops as smaller, struggling bands do, but many of us are grateful that they agree to stock and promote our music. By supporting any of us from the beginning, we’re likely not to try and fuck them over later if we happen to become more successful and it could be seen as doing just that, if you’re selling your record online before the release date.
September 8th, 2011 at 14:27
I think Los Campesinos (!) were a tad quick to jump down the guys throat for making what was a very fair point. Slagging the ‘redundant britpop posters and terrible coffee’ was also a bit fucking rude as well, considering how good a shop Avalanche is. If they want to sell direct to fans, fine, everyone does it (pioneered by prince in the late 90′s i believe) but they shouldn’t complain when the owner of a record shop, who sells their music makes a valid complaint which will affect his bottom line. I’ll wager that more people will buy the album from Avalanche than they will direct from the band in the long run. It takes someone of immense idiocy and short sightedness to think an indie record shop is rolling in dough these days, Los Campesinos (!) should really be aware of this fact.
September 8th, 2011 at 14:48
I just don’t see how Los Campesinos have fucked Avalanche over in any way here.
The most important thing for me is that bands can still make a living, and to do that they have to be innovative and broad in their selling.
Bands struggle to make money these days, so they should use all the avenues possible to sell and promote their records, and a record store is just one of those avenues.
I recognise the worth of record stores, but they are at the end of the day a middle man, and if band can sell music directly to fans then they should, and certainly shouldn’t be vilified for doing so.
September 8th, 2011 at 14:50
I’m not really sure how what Los Campesinos! is doing is much different to bands selling stuff at gigs? Fair enough, this is a pre-shop release but it’s hardly unprecedented so why were LC! in particular being picked on? Where are the tweets being directed at all the other bands who announce these deals? (It seemed to be in response to some complaint from the band about having extra money to pay for under 18 gigs but I don’t understand why that should mean they should be singled out) I should add here that I’m a subscriber to both Avalanche’s album club and LC’s Heat Rash fanzine/7″ “club” and in the last week I’ve bought an album in Avalanche and preordered the Hello Sadness deluxe package from LC. I imagine a large number of LC fans who’ve gone through the band for these things are, like myself, also going in to indie stores. (All this being said, I did think the coffee/posters comment was rude and unnecessary)
September 8th, 2011 at 15:00
As a person who buys music I’d rather see me, the fan, get seemingly preferential treatment than a record shop. Sorry shops, but you don’t really have a divine right to exist. It is probably hard to be a record shop these days, I appreciate that, but if your business model is struggling you need to work on it or change it, not blame everyone else.
September 8th, 2011 at 15:21
I agree with Jim. Surely if Avalanche want to survive in an industry as progressive and fluid as music then they have to embrace changes, rather than rejecting them. Good indie record shops are not just places for storing and selling music, that approach is lazy and internet shops are going to triumph 9 times out of 10 in terms of price and range. Good indie records shops should be a hub for the local scene, and unfortunately, Avalanche’s myopic attitude is making it harder and harder for bands, labels and fans to get this sense of community from the shop. Essentially, he is just coming across as the music industry equivalent of an old man shouting “GET OFF MY LAWN”.
September 8th, 2011 at 15:30
To be perfectly honest I am getting pretty fed up with Kev’s self righteous tweets/blog posts. Yes indie stores are having a tough time, but he has to appreciate that times have moved on and picking fights with bands isn’t exactly helping. So fucking what if they sold to their fans first, does he seriously expect bands to come to him first when he’s going to take around 25-30% of the sale price. Yes, the LC! ‘Britpop’ comment was a bit childish, but fuck it was pretty fucking funny too.
It’s a big bad world out there, stores and bands are both finding it tough, but pissing and moaning on the Internet like a spilt brat is hardly going to make someone want to come and visit Avalanche.
September 8th, 2011 at 15:33
I think I’m with the band here but in a dumbed down sense, I see both sides of the coin. Like annoyingmouse says, how different is this to bands selling merch at a gig? Yes, we all want record stores to be around and nobody wants to see anyone go out of business but the band are also trying to make a living.
I see the point about Avalanche supporting local bands and doing in-stores, which is great and they’ve done some brilliant ‘in-store days’ recently but Los Campesinos aren’t a local band, they’re signed to a label and the pre order with added bonus features is going to be bought by massive fans of the band. I’ve seen plenty of smaller Scottish labels, who regularly stock records in Avalanche, offer early downloads if you pre order their forthcoming release direct and I’m not sure that they were lambasted for that? It seems a little unfair that LC were singled out here.
Also, is it ‘direct’ from the band or is it really from the band’s label you are pre-ordering? Guessing it’s not coming from a box of records under the drummers bed!!
September 8th, 2011 at 16:05
Agree with GlueStick about this attitude becoming somewhat grating. I’ve shopped at Avalanche for nearly 15 years, but this nonesense just tarnishes the good reputation the store has built up
Yes, bands selling directly affects record store sales, but it helps the bands! Is a retailer entitled to be hacked of about this? I really can’t agree. Kevin needs to remember he is running a business, that’s his job and some may say he’s lucky to be able do something he (tantrums aside) enjoys! That said, he’s not doing this as a labour of love after working all day at a job (noting that criticism in the past hasn’t been limited to the likes of Radiohead and Mogwai)
The ‘support’ constantly referred to by Avalanche is all well and good and is doubtless helpful to bands, but at the end of the day it’s most helpful to the revenue of the store – it’s far from a selfless favour on Avalanche’s part. I remember some comment about Avalanche selling thousands of copies of the Neutral Milk Hotel album as if it was a great deed – 1) lets be honest, it sold loads because it’s an awesome album 2) I bet the accountant was delighted! Everyone is a winner, but undue credit should not go to the point of sale in my opinion.
Same goes for letting people do in-store gigs – a draw of punters without any promotional costs = more sales throughout the store = business win.
I sincerely wish the best for record stores at this tough time, but a bit of perspective and less of a ‘poor me’ attitude might be more dignified approach.
September 8th, 2011 at 18:07
i agree with most sentiments here and i reckon that both sides have been a bit silly. Kev shouldn’t expect that a band will prioritise his store and Los Campesinos should lighten the fuck up and stop berating him as if he’s some sort of crook/idiot. They are completely entitled to do whatever they like and not expect hassle for it and Kev should realise bands are not his pals- they are there to make music and sell it. Simple as that.
HOWEVER, Kev has one strong point. We can no longer bemoan that record stores are going through hard times and what a shame it is etc while simultaneously ignoring them when it comes to releases. Bear in mind, Kev is only asking for the band to release everything at the same date, nothing more. If Los Campesinos get 1000 pre-orders, chances are Avalanche will make fuck all, so much so that its pointless for them to stock it. The bigger CD stores may still stock it because their label will have paid enough/done enough for them to end up in the chain stores but independent stores won’t. SO there should be no tears or moaning from bands like LC when they go under.
September 8th, 2011 at 19:11
As far as I’m concerned, Los Campesinos do not have a case to answer. Given that a lot of the music that Avalanche sells is from local bands, does Kevin publicly harangue them when they sell their albums at a launch gig before shop release?
I’m guessing, and I’m hoping, not. So why is this any different? I have no idea what Kevin has done personally to help the band get to where they are, but since Los Campesinos don’t appear to know him personally, I suspect all he has done is stock their album. What right does he have to pass judgement on how they wish to reward their loyal fans?
September 8th, 2011 at 21:26
Not really going to get into a debate. Of course people are entitled to their own theories as to our motives for selling music. Just to say the language of the tweet was understandably taken out of context by those who are not my followers and didn’t see the retweet immediately before from the band themselves
loscampesinos Los Campesinos!
by avalanche_edin
DID YOU KNOW that in many cases venues charge bands extra money to make shows All Ages/16+ rather than 18/21+. Seems pretty shitty to me.
September 9th, 2011 at 10:41
Al this drama, but does anyone give an actual fuck about Los Hipsterinos?
September 9th, 2011 at 13:35
I follow Kev on Twitter cos there’s often a bit of banter. I complimented him (via Twitter) on the new shop last week. Half expected abuse for having visisted but not bought (was in a rush on a work trip through from Glasgow, couldn’t find the St Vincent album I was after).
Kev has had a pop at Mogwai about this same issue so he’s not scared to tackle big boys about it, and it’s possibly a pet hate. If he wants to do anything about it he’s probably going to have to see if all indie stores are prepared to boycott stocking a band that uses the internet to pre-release to fans. Otherwise he’s going to have to just accept it’s another way in which the record selling business is changing.
As for “Los Hipsterinos” (he he), early promise has not been fulfilled, though there’s plenty of their chums on the blogosphere echo chamber who may insist otherwise. I liked “you me dancing” 4 years ago, it was good to hear Budweiser using it in an ad last year – it wasnt a chart hit but catchy and I don’t grudge them some cash….
September 9th, 2011 at 15:21
Just jumping in as I was away yesterday…
I do think it’s a bit unfair to take Kev’s tweet out of context, although that’s always the danger with microblogging. LC! were commenting on being fucked over by another side of the music “business” (venues), Kev was taking that observation and saying hey, everybody’s fucking everybody else over here. Although obviously the fundamental difference is that LC! surely retain the right to do whatever they like with their own music for their own fans. In that sense it was maybe a bit prickish of him, but I get the impression that he’s the sort of character who has no issues with saying what’s on his mind. The nature of a site like Twitter though is that everybody else then gets to pile on.
Which, when you’re speaking YOUR mind in a public forum, you have every right to expect other people will do in return.
So. Both sides have good points, both sides overreacted. For what it’s worth, Kev went out of his way to source something for me this week so I am pretty much Avalanche’s biggest fan, and LC! have one song I like but I will download the free one anyway because I am a troll like that. As you were.
September 9th, 2011 at 16:06
its not Los Campesinos! here its Gareth and he can be a pretentious little prat sometimes.
Remember this is not currently a happy band, they fired their drummer had their lead female singer leave and be replaced by Gareth’s little sister and Harriet has just left. I tend to like their music but the mood currently behind the band is not kosher currently.
note this is also how I feel about Danananakroyd and them firing Laura so venomously and no that wasn’t passive and I heard law suits were involved.
He is the same type that send out venomous messages to fans who download any albums early whilst I have spotted band members and close friends tweet about illegally downloading themselves.
social networking is just that social and open and when you do shitty like this you leave a nasty taste in folks mouth’s that make them think twice about spending their cash on that band.
September 10th, 2011 at 16:23
I really wanted to find some ‘evidence’ that LC had been involved in Record Store Day – sadly all I could find was some mention that they’d taken part in a Wichita gig last year. But anyway – all arguments about ‘doing it for the kids’ aside – if just one indie record shop goes under, then LC can take their fair share of the credit/blame.
September 10th, 2011 at 18:42
and right on cue:
http://www.beatcroft.net/2011/09/last-record-shop.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Someone was asking me the other day about why is this music? stopped being a print publication; the answer was “money”, basically. But… if it had lasted another year, the answer would have been “because there’s no shops left to stock it” – with HMV, Virgin and Fopp as well as Borders decimated, and indies like Clive’s vanishing, there’s no option apart from subscriptions/postal. Bands, labels and shops are a more important part of the scene (obviously), but I’m not sure how an indie magazine or zine could survive, unless it was a giveaway – or went online.
September 12th, 2011 at 18:31
It has been great to read this debate.
Out of necessity, the currently surviving Independent Record stores have their fingers on the pulse of where music is right now, what ways you can make money from your music, and how to reach the fans. They know shit loads of other bands in the same situation and keeping up communications and support with bands means they can represent them, promote them, give advice, provide a more consistent income, distribution – a whole lot of stuff that up and coming bands could do with knowing. Keeping up a good relationship with the independent record store will only serve to do good for your band, and help them to recommend you to not only potential fans but to other record stores.
Record Store Day is a day of innovative and successful ways of promotion and selling music. These shops have a great following, and public profile. In store gigs are a great way to advertise the shop, for sure, but what comes in goes further to make the shop more efficient in what it does, having more albums for sale, and supporting the wider artistic community. It’s more of a social enterprise than a soulless corporate chain store making a buck any way it can. I understand rewarding fans, but there are other ways to do it than harming the very shops that have so far been successful in fighting to stay afloat in a creative and altruistic manner, by keeping top of their game and having a loyal and trusting community. Avalanche has a great reputation for a reason – great prices, relaxed atmosphere to browse, great selection on offer and if the music you’re looking for isn’t there – great customer service. They are great at sourcing what you’re looking for, not to mention recommendations.
Educate the fans that they need to spend money on what is worthwhile – we need to be more of a community, and what we put in will definitely come back to all of us.
September 14th, 2011 at 14:01
This is kind of the equivalent of someone at starbucks who just made your coffee complaining that you didnt give them a tip. As a band, they are entitled to release their works in any form they desire, and in this case, LC are thinking of the fans first. I like Avalanche Records, but i think their logic in this one is shit.
With that being said, im not really a fan of LC’s music.
September 19th, 2011 at 14:28
On Jamie’s comment, I think a better analogy would be it’s like eBay having a pop at me for selling my second hand stuff directly to a mate, instead of selling it to them via eBay where they can take a cut. Are you serious?!
Seems like an error of judgement to me. The damage done by throwing a strop like this is far worse than missing out on the handful of sales from LC! selling direct to fans. Nobody wants to go into a record store and be confronted by Jack Black’s character from High Fidelity.
Jim’s right – if your business model isn’t working, get a new one. It hurts, but the bubble has burst for so much of the music industry, and throwing a paddy isn’t going to stop things evolving. Nobody wants to hear another person involved in music trying to kid on that their part of the ship shouldn’t have to sink with the rest of it.
Saying this, I like Avalanche and I like Kevin from the brief time that I met him, so I hope he can find a way to keep things going beyond the music industry’s whateverthisis. The facts are plain and simple, though – why would band or fans want to give somebody else a slice of the pie when they don’t have to?
September 20th, 2011 at 10:45
Hello,
Gareth of “those tweets pasted above” fame, here.
First off, Jane – please stop pretending you have the Inside Scoop on our band. Honestly, you seem to constantly go round talking as though you know us personally and it’s quite embarrassing (for you) and unfair (on us). I’m sure we’ll have a nice chat next time we pass through Boston, so for the meantime, please stop speculating on things you know very little about (eg. my/my friends’ happiness). Thank you.
As for some of the other points, I’d like to apologise for the tact I took in speaking with Avalanche. It was OTT and fueled by exasperation at being called out over something I genuinely hadn’t considered to be an issue.
Our band, Los Campesinos!, over the past 5 years has done an awful lot to support Independent Record Stores. Be it playing instores all over the UK and North America, Indie-only album deals, record store promoted gigs, or record store day 7″s (we didn’t do one last year, admittedly, we had a busy year…), we’ve always done what we believe we can.
***With this record, even, we’re sending a limited edition version of the album to Independent Record Stores that your HMVs and Our Prices won’t be able to stock.***
HOWEVER, our priority will always be those people who want to buy the records and come to our shows. And that’s why we’re selling direct to the ‘fans’. We can do that cheaper than we could through a record store and so we will do. I can see the contention with pre-orders getting the record earlier than store date, but this is our attempt to deal with the inevitable leaking of our album in the best way that we can. There will be people who, due to loyalty to our band, won’t want to download a leak, and in an ideal world, people with such loyalty would be those who would hear the record first. So this is a compromise we’re making with ourselves. I’d also wager several people who WOULDN’T buy the album if they already owned an illegal download have signed up to the pre-order through sheer excitement and anticipation.
I’ve little knowledge of Avalanche Records (which is another reason it was bad of me to tweet in the manner that I did. Again, I apologise (though I did buy a Viking Moses album from you once)), but there are tens of independent record stores across the UK (notably Spillers, Rough Trade, Banquet) and US that I’ve had very enjoyable, expensive hours in. I want to see them thrive, but it’s only sensible for us to operate in a way that benefits us and our ‘fans’ most. It’s increasingly hard to make a living as a band (particularly for a 7 piece) and so we’ve got to find ways to keep our own band afloat (another such way being the Heat Rash subscription series we have started).
I hope that makes things from my viewpoint a little clearer, and one final time I apologise for being so snotty on twitter.
All the best,
G
ps. I do hope the opening of the Avalanche Records Coffee Corner hasn’t effected Edinburgh’s local independent cafes too badly
<——–SAFETY WINK.
September 20th, 2011 at 18:35
G I do not claim I know you. I have read your twitter and comments you have made. LC has changed extensively that was what I said, your over reading is typical. my point was the LC twitter is you not the band and that the band has fragmented, a band of seven changing three members, that’s extensive. I don’t know you bar public statements you made ie not at all and have never claimed to.
As to talking next time you are in Boston your revolving door of a band has left a nasty taste in my mouth and I wont be there.
September 20th, 2011 at 23:36
Didn’t think I would be commenting again but Gareth’s points deserve a response as fair as he has been. Once a band supply their fans directly it is a no win situation for them if they do try to give shops something different. Avalanche’s customer base is very much the fans of a band with casual customers going to FOPP. Consequently we are hit hardest if a band sell directly to its fans and particularly badly if that is before the official release date. Worst case scenario is the band plays in town selling the album before release. I’ve seen us sell 5 of an album when we might have sold 50. The Fall did it with their Domino release and just to rub it in Mark E. Smith then stormed off and didn’t finish the set leaving those customers who hadn’t bought the album already vowing not to do so.
If we do have a print for instance to give away with the album then what we get are fans who have already bought the album from the band asking if there is any way we can give/sell them a print. The fan isn’t particularly happy to miss out on the print and the shop feels stitched up that a band it thought was giving fans a reason to come in the shop has actually sold directly. Funnily enough the sales notes never mention that the band/label will be targeting their fan base at the expense of shops. Coincidentally I believe that this was brought up at the recent ERA (Entertainment Retailers Association) meeting.
All the people I tweeted would have understood my comment in the context of all the other comments I have made. I certainly wasn’t singling out Los Campesinos! Of course once it was retweeted that was lost. I have a good relationship with a lot of bands and I have helped many one way or another so they also know where I am coming from. There are of course others who think I am simply a capitalist supporting bands for financial gain.
As for the bloody coffee shop it was the local bands that persuaded me it was a good idea in the first place. All the local cafes (there are no nearby coffee shops) were fine about me doing “high end” coffee and the cakes were even sourced from bands and their friends. To be honest I really haven’t had the time to promote it properly and it is a huge relief that one of the coffee shop’s customers turns out to be such a big fan of the coffee that he has offered to take it over and it turns out that is his background.
All in all no hard feelings and a free coffee with optional Britpop poster next time the band are in town.
PS A big thank you to Gordon Ballboy and Dan/Withered Hand for calming things down in the first place
September 21st, 2011 at 09:24
Aah, group hug everyone?
September 21st, 2011 at 15:53
Have to say I agree with Gareth here.
I know indie record shops are a dying breed and are struggling and should be supported by music fans and musicians alike, but the bands have the right to do whatever they want with their music and to be fair, Los Campesinos are not the first band to offer this kind of deal where you can pre order bundles ahead of release. Pretty sure Avalanche didn’t complain when a band like Twin Atlantic did it earlier in the year.
I’ve ordered the new LC! album from them directly from them and this will not stop me from shopping in independent record shops. However, moaning like this and the rant that was had at Mogwai earlier in the year is the sort of thing to encourage me to favour other indie shops in the future and stay away from Avalanche in Edinburgh.
September 22nd, 2011 at 11:54
JANE:
Just a couple of points.
1. Who are you to speculate on the happiness of a group of seven strangers? I follow the band on Twitter (one of the sources of information you reference) and I hate to tell you this lady, but they’ve been tweeting about how happy and proud they are of their album and forthcoming tours. The photos they posted from Spain while recording said album reflect this. Maybe you just saw the album title (‘Hello Sadness’) and thought this was a statement? I admit that’d be pretty stupid, but you DO seem pretty stupid.
2. Who are you to speculate on the goings on of another band (Dananananaykroyd), who I presume you also know nothing about? If you’re going to play at being the uber-matriarch of UK indie rock super-knowledge, then maybe you should show some decorum in what you’re posting. It’s literally none of your business, and I also don’t see how “facts” (I know you Americans – especially the stupid ones, and as I implied, you seem to be one of these – can find it hard to grasp sarcasm so I’ve included the word in quotation marks to heighten the obviousness) can ruin an enjoyment of a band. OH MAN I CANNOT ENJOY THIS ALBUM BECAUSE THE BAND MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY BE SUPER BEST FRIENDS. In that case, we should start burning the back catalogues of The Beatles, The Smiths, Smashing Pumpkins, Pixies, Husker Du and Pavement, to name but a handful.
3. This whole “revolving door” slur (an absolutely shite put down, did my mum write your posts for you? I hope you didn’t go on and on about your family having celtic roots. We HATE it when you guys do that). Let’s consider simple mathematics.
FOUR/FIVE PIECE BAND: ONE OR TWO PEOPLE LEAVE OVER THE COURSE OF FIVE YEARS, DOESN’T SEEM THAT BAD DOES IT?
SEVEN/EIGHT PIECE BAND: TWO OR THREE PEOPLE LEAVE OVER THE COURSE OF FIVE YEARS, IT’S EXACTLY THE SAME ISN’T IT. IT’S ABOUT PROPORTION, LADY!
4. Some band members actually CHOOSE to leave a band! ISN’T THAT MENTAL?
5. Thanks for your time, ATB.
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