May 22, 2013: The Basement Coffee House in Ayr has been shortlisted by NME as Scotland’s representative in a public vote to find the best small venue in Britain. The 80-capacity venue opened eight months ago.
Tomorrow’s second instalment of the Dewar House Experimental Batch series sees Edinburgh’s Caves host free live music from Kid Canaveral, The Last Battle and Adam Ross (Randolph’s Leap). There will be 550 tickets available on the door on a first come, first served basis.
May 21, 2013: Camera Obscura song Fifth In Line To The Throne is available for free download in exchange for an email address. It’s taken from the band’s fifth album Desire Lines, out on June 3, and pre-ordering it will get you another track, Do It Again.
Book Group have released their debut EP, Homeward Sound.
Sparrow And The Workshop’s third album Murderopolis, out on May 27, is streaming in full via DIY - one of the songs, The Faster You Spin, is also available for free download.
May 20, 2013: Garden Of Elks’ debut EP, Extended Play, is available to buy and stream.
The Clock have a video for their excellent song Everything’s Eventual, which is released on May 28. They have Glasgow gigs lined up at Broadcast on June 1 and Roxy 171 on June 20.
May 18, 2013: The 16-strong T Break line-up for T in the Park on July 12-14 has been unveiled - Arches, Blindfolds, DARC, Fake Major, Hector Bizerk, Honeyblood, Machines In Heaven, Michael Cassidy, Poor Things, Pronto Mama, Seams, Sunshine Social, The Merrylees, The Velveteen Saints, Vasa, Waiting For Go.
Anna Sweeney has announced she is taking a full break from music and has cancelled her scheduled appearance at Wickerman in July as she relocates to Reading for work in June. Another musician swapping Scotland for England is Plum, who is moving to Brighton in July.
May 17, 2013: The stage times have been released for the 35 acts playing Stag & Dagger across seven Glasgow venues on May 18.
Franz Ferdinand’s fourth album Right Thoughts, Right Words, Right Action will be released on August 26 – check out this brief trailer.
Frightened Rabbit recorded a cover of Best Coast’s The Only Place for Australian radio show Triple J. The band release their Late March, Death March EP on June 2.
The Mouse That Ate The Cat song When I Wake Up is available for free in exchange for your email address.
The title track of Adam Stafford’s forthcoming second album Imaginary Walls Collapse is streaming here.
May 16, 2013: The Discopolis remix of Bwani Junction single Civil War is available to download for free from SoundCloud.
Born To Be Wide’s next seminar at Edinburgh’s Electric Circus on May 30 is on the topic of goNORTH, with a panel featuring broadcaster Vic Galloway, goNORTH duo Amanda Millen and Alex Smith and Chasing Owls frontman Ben Sunderland explaining how musicians and delegates can get the most out of the annual Inverness convention. Tickets are free.
AC/DC have backed a campaign to erect a bronze statue of their former frontman Bon Scott in his hometown of Kirriemuir in Angus. Community music group DD8 Music hope to raise £50,000 via Kickstarter by June 5.
Kite And The Crane’s debut EP, Found In The End, is out on Bandcamp.
May 15, 2013: Biffy Clyro have a video for their new single Opposite.
The View are playing a one-off show at Glasgow’s King Tut’s on June 12 for the Sunday Mail Centenary Fund.
Adam Stafford is launching his second album Imaginary Walls Collapse with a gig at Glasgow’s Glad Cafe on July 5 with support from Siobhan Wilson and Robbie Lesiuk.
May 14, 2013: The Wee Chill will mark its 10th anniversary with a two-stage bill at Glasgow’s SWG3 on June 29 for the West End Festival. The line-up features Malcolm Middleton, James Yorkston with Sparrow & The Workshop (collaborative debut), Aidan Moffat (spoken word), Three Blind Wolves, Roddy Hart & The Lonesome Fire, Miaoux Miaoux, Fake Major.
Tommy Perman, who recently left FOUND, has unveiled his new solo project ComputerScheisse – check out These Beautiful Minds, the title track of his debut EP, out on July 15 through Phuturelabs.
RockNess have announced more acts for the festival on June 7-9 including Fenech-Soler, Fatherson, Public Service Broadcasting, The Boy Who Trapped The Sun, Niteworks and Jemma Tweedie.
Too Many Fireworks Records will donate all profits from sales of Variations Of Chopin, an album of contemporary interpretations of the composer’s music, to the fundraising campaign for drummer Robbie Cooper, whose cancer fight was documented on The Pop Cop.
May 13, 2013: New releases out now include Young Aviators’ debut album Self Help, Eagleowl’s debut album This Silent Year, and Cherri Fosphate’s new Burning Youth EP.
May 10, 2013: The live schedule for goNORTH in Inverness on June 5-6 has been unveiled – it includes a Scottish Bloggers Showcase hosted by The Pop Cop, Peenko and Song, by Toad featuring a four-band bill of Garden Of Elks, Friends In America, The Yawns and Flutes.
May 9, 2013: The documentary Hunting For Remoteness details The Magnetic North’s visit to Orkney – where frontman Erland Cooper is from – for the making of their debut album. It will be released on June 24 alongside a reissue of that record, Orkney: Symphony Of The Magnetic North. You can watch the trailer here.
Alphabetical Order Orchestra are streaming their first song, The Architect. The band is made up of My Latest Novel members Chris Deveney, Gary Deveney and Ryan King.
A Band Called Quinn have launched a crowdfunding campaign to support performances of their multimedia show Biding Time (remix) at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in August.
May 8, 2013: Three Blind Wolves have released their new album, Sing Hallelujah For The Old Machine.
May 7, 2013: Adam Stafford’s new single Please is streaming online – it’s taken from his second album Imaginary Walls Collapse, out in July.
May 6, 2013: The T in the Park Roadshow is bringing free live music to Scottish towns this month – it stops at Glasgow today for The View at Kelvingrove Park (1pm) and Buchanan Street (3.30pm); Edinburgh on May 10 for Vigo Thieves at Queen Margaret University’s Student Union (noon), Dundee on May 11 for The LaFontaines at Overgate Centre (noon); Aberdeen on May 12 for Sienna at Aberdeen University (noon); and Ayr on May 18 for The Redettes at Ayr Railway Station (noon).
Fake Major have a video for Fiction, a song on their Have Plenty Of Fun EP. Fellow Comets & Cartwheels artist Finn LeMarinel has a new video for Garden, taken from his debut album Violence.
Capitals have released a sampler of all the tracks on their debut album A National Service, out on June 3.
May 3, 2013: Episode 11 of BBC ALBA’s Rapal music TV programme is on iPlayer and features Cara Mitchell, Brown Bear & The Bandits, Three Blind Wolves and Anna Sweeney.
Steve Mason has accused Samsung of plagiarising the video for The Beta Band’s 2004 single Assessment for their new television advert. Both show historical figures running down a beach and helicopters circling overhead.
May 2, 2013: Young Aviators’ debut album Self Help is streaming on Electric Honey’s SoundCloud ahead of its release on May 13.
May 1, 2013: Travis have a video for Where You Stand, the first single and title track of the band’s seventh album, out on August 19.
Fake Major’s debut EP, Have Plenty Of Fun, is available for download.
My Latest Novel have gone on hiatus, with three of the members forming Alphabetical Order Orchestra - look out for music from them next week.
Kobi Onyame has a video for his new single The Real Part 2.
Trapped In Kansas have unveiled new song Collapse Rebuild.
Rob St John’s new AA single Charcoal Black And The Bonny Grey/Shallow Brown is out now.
April 30, 2013: Boards Of Canada will release Tomorrow’s Harvest, their first new album in eight years, on June 10.
Quickbeam song Immersed is available to download for free from DIY – you can also listen to snippets from every track of the band’s self-titled debut album, out on June 3.
Discopolis have unveiled the video for their new song Falling (Committed To Sparkle Motion), out on May 5.
April 29, 2013: The SAY Award will stream each of the 20 longlisted albums for 24 hours through their app, starting today with Miaoux Miaoux’s Light Of The North. You can read The Pop Cop’s feature here.
Panda Su’s new song MAPS is available to buy now on Amazon, while Bwani Junction’s new single Civil War is on iTunes.
The Boy Who Trapped The Sun has a video for new song California ahead of his May tour in Scotland.
The Pastels have a video for Check My Heart, taken from their forthcoming new album Slow Summits, out on May 27.
Frank Turner covered Frightened Rabbit’s The Modern Leper for Jim Gellatly’s In:Demand Uncut session.
April 27, 2013: Episode 10 of BBC ALBA’s Rapal music TV programme is on iPlayer and features two fantastic unreleased songs by Beerjacket as well as The Holy Ghosts, The Merrylees and Ray McCartney.
Travis, Johnny Marr, Hurts, James Skelly, Jack Savoretti, Willy Mason, Foy Vance, Steve Mason, Milo Greene and DIIV have been added to the T in the Park line-up, which has now been separated into day-by-day splits.
Edinburgh venue The Forest Cafe, which has been banned from hosting live music due to council restrictions, are looking for acts to play their new monthly event, the Forest Big Night Out at Old St Paul’s, which launches on May 23. Email foresteventsedinburgh@gmail.com for details.
April 26, 2013: The Burns an’ a’ that! Festival will feature live music as part of Weekend in the Park at Ayr’s Belleisle Park on May 25-26. Rose Parade, Little Fire, Pronto Mama and The Bluebells are among the free acts; Justin Currie + Rachel Sermanni play a ticketed gig on May 26.
Other newly-announced concerts on sale include Lana Del Rey + Kassidy at Glasgow’s SECC on May 16 (replacing her two dates at the Academy on May 15/16) Bombay Bicycle Club at Edinburgh’s Liquid Room on June 7, Belle & Sebastian at Inverness’ Ironworks on July 1, We Are Scientists at Glasgow’s Oran Mor on July 29, Kid Canaveral + Ballboy at Edinburgh’s Liquid Room on August 10.
Kid Canaveral + The Last Battle + Adam Ross (Randolph’s Leap) also play a free show at Edinburgh’s Caves on May 23 with 300 tickets on the door on a first come, first served basis as part of a Dewar’s event.
April 25, 2013: Seasick Steve, The Pigeon Detectives, Julie Fowlis, Meursault, Washington Irving, PAWS and The LaFontaines have been added to the Belladrum Festival line-up on August 2-3.
Washington Irving have released Palomides Volume 1, the first half of their debut album.
The View are streaming Kill Kyle, one of two new songs on their compilation album Seven Year Setlist, out on June 17.
April 24, 2013: The showcase list of artists picked to play goNORTH in Inverness on June 5-6 has been announced. For the third consecutive year there will be a bloggers’ showcase stage hosted by The Pop Cop, Peenko and Song, by Toad. More details to follow soon.
Kilmarnock’s Dirty Weekender will feature 45 acts over three venues on May 31 to June 2 including Fridge Magnets, Bwani Junction, The Ok Social Club, Ross Leighton (Fatherson) and Chris Helme.
Poor Things’ new single Morgan is free to download – it’s taken from their Hurricane Poor Things EP, out on June 10.
Similarly, Cherri Fosphate are giving away Wool from their Burning Youth EP, out on May 11.
April 23, 2013: Glasvegas will play Aberdeen’s Garage on June 27, Edinburgh’s Liquid Room on June 28 and Glasgow’s ABC on June 29.
Reverieme’s second album With Up So Floating is out now.
Roddy Hart & The Lonesome Fire have announced they will release their self-titled new album through Middle Of Nowhere Records in July.
Herculean have a video for Red Weather, taken from The Falling Thunder EP, out on June 7.
April 22, 2013: Stag & Dagger have added Phosphorescent, Rachel Sermanni, Randolph’s Leap, French Wives, Fake Major, Prides, Chris Devotion & The Expectations and Donald Macdonald & The Islands to the Glasgow festival’s line-up on May 18.
Episode 9 of BBC ALBA’s Rapal music TV programme is on iPlayer and features Brown Bear & The Bandits, Cara Mitchell, The Open Day Rotation and John Wean.
Texas have unveiled a video for The Conversation, the title track from their first album in eight years, out on May 20.
Bronagh & The Boys have released their debut single Green, taken from A Young Heart EP, out on May 19.
April 19, 2013: Kassidy’s Barrie-James O’Neill and his girlfriend Lana Del Rey have recorded a cover of Summer Wine (made famous by Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood), backed with a video featuring handheld footage of the pair in Los Angeles.
My Bloody Valentine, Trash Talk, Fidlar and The VirginMarys have been added to the T in the Park line-up.
April 18, 2013: Pre-sale tickets are available for Regina Spektor at Glasgow’s Academy on August 20 and Kings Of Leon at the ciry’s Bellahouston Park on August 15, the latter being part of the Glasgow Summer Sessions.
The Mirror Trap have unveiled a video for Westminster Ghost Story, the first track to be taken from their second album Stay Young, due out this autumn.
April 17, 2013: Midnight Lion have changed their name to Prides and expanded to a trio with the addition of Kitty The Lion’s Callum Wiseman on guitar and vocals. To coincide with the announcement, they have unveiled wonderfully addictive new song Out Of The Blue.
T in the Park have added Local Natives, Lucy Rose, Swim Deep, Theme Park, Lewis Watson and Sons & Lovers to the festival on July 12-14.
April 16, 2013: Doune The Rabbit Hole have announced that this year’s festival will take place at the new location of Cardross Estate at Port of Menteith in Stirlingshire on August 22-25. The line-up features Clinic, Meursault, Rachel Sermanni, Alasdair Roberts, Washington Irving, The Pastels, PAWS, Beerjacket, Rick Redbeard, We Are The Physics, Randolph’s Leap, Siobhan Wilson, Panda Su, Shambles Miller, Jo Mango and TeenCanteen. See here for full day-by-day splits.
April 15, 2013: James and Twin Atlantic will headline the Belladrum Tartan Heart Festival on August 2-3. Other acts on the bill include Admiral Fallow, Fatherson, Rick Redbeard, Noisettes, The Horrors and King Charles.
April 13, 2013: Edinburgh’s live music scene has suffered yet another setback with Forest Cafe having its live music licence reviewed, causing the immediate postponement of gigs there, starting with the Solas Showcase scheduled for today.
Newsnight Scotland featured a report on the music industry on April 10, prompted by the Wide Days convention in Edinburgh. Watch the segment on BBC iPlayer, with contributions from Stanley Odd’s Dave Hook, Plum’s Shona Maguire, Chemikal Underground’s Stewart Henderson, Wide Days organiser Olaf Furniss and journalist Nicola Meighan. The interviews were conducted by Galleries drummer Andrew Black.
April 12, 2013: Episode 8 of BBC ALBA’s Rapal music TV programme is on iPlayer and features Niteworks, The Holy Ghosts, Miaoux Miaoux and The Merrylees.
Eagleowl have unveiled Not Over, the first offering from debut album This Silent Year, which will come out through Fence Records on May 13.
Dear Lara, aka David Lan, has released his debut EP Plans as a free download.
April 11, 2013: Capitals’ debut album A National Service will come out on June 3, with those who pre-order it (from just £5) getting an immediate download of any of the record’s 11 tracks, one of which is Reliever.
The View will release singles compilation Seven Year Setlist on June 17 – the album features two new songs, Dirty Magazine and Kill Kyle.
Several Scottish acts have posted tracks from forthcoming new albums – check out Washington Irving – Wandering Wits, United Fruit – Taste I Can’t Give Up and Hector Bizerk – Orchestrated Madness.
April 10, 2013: Promoters Cry Parrot will host their 6th Birthday Party at Glasgow’s Glue Factory on April 26 with a gig featuring Sacred Paws, Hector Bizerk, Tut Vu Vu, Ultimate Thrush, Ela Orleans and Sad City.
Three Blind Wolves are previewing Slow Summer Deer, taken from their Sing Hallelujah For The Old Machine album, released on May 6.
Where We Lay Our Heads single Keanu Leaves is out now.
Great Cop are giving away new song Stop Hiding as a free download.
April 9, 2013: Mogwai guitarist John Cummings uploaded a photo of himself at Glasgow’s George Square yesterday where more than 300 people gathered, inspired by his band’s 2011 song George Square Thatcher Death Party.
Hi-Arts, which promotes arts in the Highlands and Islands, has issued notices of redundancies to all 10 of its staff in the wake of funding cuts.
April 8, 2013: Fridge Magnets will play a ‘silent gig’ at a secret outdoor location in Glasgow on May 15 (6pm) – tickets can be won through organisers Deezer. The band will perform inside a mobile perspex box with the 300-capacity audience able to hear them through headphones.
Kassidy have released new mini-album People Like Me.
April 7, 2013: Song Of Return have launched their Singles Club project on Bandcamp through which they’ll be selling unreleased tracks. Month 1 contains Torn Between The Tides (see video) and Enough.
Cairn String Quartet, who were profiled on The Pop Cop in March, have unveiled their orchestral cover of Kid Canaveral’s Low Winter Sun.
Travis have made new song Another Guy available to download for free through their website. It also has a video.
April 6, 2013: The following 16 HMV and Fopp stores in Scotland will remain open following Hilco’s takeover – HMV: Aberdeen, Ayr, Dundee, East Kilbride, Edinburgh Fort Kinnaird, Edinburgh Ocean Terminal, Edinburgh Princes St, Glasgow Argyle St, Glasgow Buchanan St, Glasgow Fort, Inverness, Livingston, Stirling; Fopp: Edinburgh; Glasgow Union St; Glasgow Byres Rd.
Bwani Junction have a video for new single Civil War, out on April 29.
Rachel Sermanni and Emma’s Imagination are among the acts playing the Kintyre Songwriters Festival in Campbeltown on May 24-26.
Quickbeam will launch their debut album with a gig at the disused Govanhill Baths in Glasgow on May 31. They will be supported by Fake Major whose debut Have Plenty Of Fun EP comes out on May 1.
April 5, 2013: Spotify director Mark Williamson will give the keynote speech at next week’s Wide Days event in Edinburgh as part of a session on the business of streaming. The full running order is here.
Episode 7 of BBC ALBA’s Rapal music TV programme is on iPlayer and features Anna Sweeney, Cara Mitchell, Discopolis and Paul McGranaghan.
Dot JR has uploaded new song Waterfalls to SoundCloud.
April 4, 2013: The Tiree Music Festival will take place in An Talla on July 20-21 with a bill that includes Roddy Hart & The Lonesome Fire, Washington Irving, The Youth And Young and Brown Bear & The Bandits.
Galleries’ fantastic new single Midnight Rush is out now.
Casual Sex have made a video for their debut single Stroh 80. They play Glasgow’s Nice ‘n’ Sleazy on April 5 and Oran Mor on April 7.
April 3, 2013: Comlongon Rocks have added a third day of live music to its line-up at Comlongon Castle in Dumfries & Galloway on May 17-19. The festival’s line-up features Three Blind Wolves, Emma’s Imagination, The OK Social Club and Saint Max.
Chem 19 are offering three days of free recording time to five Scottish acts through their Creative Scotland Demo Fund. To apply, musicians (under-25s only) should email a link to some demos and a bio to info@chem19.co.uk with the subject Chem19 Demo Fund Enquiry before April 26. Chosen acts will also take part in a live showcase.
Siobhan Wilson + Julia And The Doogans + Jo Mango will play Glasgow’s Roxy 171 on June 26 as part of the Scottish Fiction Presents: Aye Tunes vs Peenko night at the West End Festival.
April 2, 2013: Acts confirmed for The Insider Festival in Aviemore on June 21-23 include Rachel Sermanni, Karine Polwart, Hector Bizerk, Urstan, David Thomas Broughton, Miaoux Miaoux, Pete Roe, Jonnie Common, Adam Holmes And The Embers and Sparrow And The Workshop.
Up-and-coming acts can apply to play the Hebridean Celtic Festival in Stornoway on July 17-20 through their One Step Further competition which is open to musicians aged 18-25. To enter, artists need to email office@hebceltfest.com with the subject HebCelt New Talent Submissions and include links to three songs, a biog and high-res photo. Closing date is April 12.
April 1, 2013: Quickbeam’s self-titled debut album will be released through Comets & Cartwheels on June 3 – check out the video for lead track Immersed which will be available as a free download on April 29.
We Were Promised Jetpacks will headline the second night of the three-day Solas Festival in Perthshire on June 22.
Minor Delilah will be giving away copies of their new EP, Only Dust Can Hear You, to anyone who attends their launch gig at Glasgow’s Classic Grand on May 3.
04
Mar
Pay to play – three little words, one big problem
You’d be hard-pushed to come up with a practice that musicians find more abhorrent than ‘pay to play’.
Different people have different ideas about what it entails. Some would argue that major music events like SXSW are pay to play given that artists have to fork out at least $30 to apply via Sonicbids, the same submission website used by RockNess for their unsigned stage and GoNorth. Then there’s the loathsome cash cow that is Live And Unsigned (now with added public humiliation!).
But the sort of pay-to-play events I’m going to discuss here is the one that primarily concerns local promoters booking local acts at local venues.
At a conventional gig, the promoter will pay the acts for their performance and raise the money to put on the show by charging the audience.
Under a pay-to-play system, the artist themselves must pay the promoter up front in some way to play the gig. Most commonly, this takes the form of the compulsory purchase of non-returnable tickets, which the artist needs to sell in order to recoup their outlay.
One company who uses such a method is Whats The Noise Promotions, who put on gigs at various venues in Glasgow including ABC2, Stereo, The Captain’s Rest, Pivo Pivo, 13th Note, Chambre 69, Maggie Mays and Flat 0/1. An unsigned band forwarded a WTNP contract to The Pop Cop that shows they would be charged £50 if they sold 10 tickets or less, with revenue from sales above that number split with the promoter.
A gig should be a partnership between the artists on the bill and the promoter, with both sharing responsibility for its success. But with the arrangement used by WTNP and many others like them, only one party faces financial risk. A four-band bill under the terms above guarantees £200 for the promoter even if the venue is empty.
Nobody is forcing musicians to take these pay-to-play deals but promoters get away with it because those they target often think they have few, if any, other options. For example, they might be a beginner band who haven’t built up a fanbase outwith family and friends, they might not have good contacts or they might be based in an area with only one small venue. Another demographic regularly approached by pay-to-play promoters is under-age bands, who find it virtually impossible to get shows in licensed premises.
When DF Concerts book a local act to play at, say, King Tut’s, they usually use a ticket deal which splits the revenue two ways. However, unlike pay-to-play promoters, DF never set a minimum amount that an act must give them before they can go on stage, so there is no repercussions for musicians when it comes to ticket sales, at least not financially.
“When a band is offered a gig they have to look at the offer and see if it works for them,” says Craig Johnston, assistant booker at DF Concerts. “If they don’t think they will sell any tickets then they shouldn’t take a ticket deal. I have had bands come to Tut’s and bring five people, so when they ask for another show I’ll be totally straight with them and tell them to go and play some of the good smaller venues in town like Bloc to build a fanbase then come back to Tut’s when they’re ready to play a bigger venue.”
Should an act ever agree to play without getting paid?
“Look at each offer individually,” says Craig. “If they think they will get enough PR etc out of it, it might be a good idea. But when I was a band manager I would never let one of my acts play for free.”
Singer-songwriter Vivien Scotson has organised a protest against the exploitation of musicians at Glasgow’s George Square on April 28 29 at 1pm. She says her campaign is as much about educating musicians as it is about persuading self-serving promoters to change their ways.
“It’s a rather big picture and not just aimed at getting promoters to stop putting on pay to play,” explains Vivien. “By spreading the awareness, it is educating others to steer clear of these pay-to-play gigs. A lot of musicians already know pay to play is wrong, but because certain promoters have a hold on so many venues, and block book them, they feel they have no alternative. And often if they stand up to it, and suggest it’s not a fair deal, they will be told they are not getting any more gigs with that promoter and sometimes even threatened. The sad thing is, the scene has been totally polluted by it.
“There is so much involved in all this. I am gathering lots of information regarding places for musicians under the age of 18 to play. I am also against venues expecting musicians to play free of charge, and offering nothing in return. Yes, it does all come down to choice, but the side that is acting immorally is the side that is booking these musicians in the first place.”
The pay-to-play promoter’s argument for employing the methods they do is that the commercial success of a gig relies on how many paying customers can be attracted. If they are booking grassroots acts who aren’t established, there are no guarantees that costs will be covered. The promoter will have their own outlay such as hiring the venue and staff, supplying backline equipment and printing posters, and they feel they have just as much right to earn money for their efforts as the musician.
The question, though, is whether that right extends to charging the performer for a low turnout. A musician’s first job is to play music, a promoter’s first job is to promote. If not enough tickets have been sold for the show to break even then it’s patently obvious which of these two parties haven’t done their homework properly – and it isn’t the ones up on stage.
89 Responses to “Pay to play – three little words, one big problem”
March 4th, 2012 at 11:39
To be honest, I wouldn’t say DF is a great example of how it should work.
March 4th, 2012 at 11:49
I think part of the problem is a collision of two worlds that don’t really sit very comfortably together. The first is those musicians who don’t really take the whole thing very seriously, but want a fun night out and a chance to play for some mates in a venue with a bar. The second is the real music scene, involving musicians who are trying to really do something with their music, are pushed on by a talent other people see in them and are taken seriously by others as a result.
The pay to play model seems really aimed at the first group, and is more of a venue hire agreement than a promotion one. The thing is – without it, people in the first group simply would not be able to get a gig, unless they hired their own venue and promoted it themselves – which is what they are effectively doing with “pay to play”. The REAL deception of “pay to play” is the fact that they call themselves “promoters” when really their business model is that of a “venue agency”.
There is going to come a point for a musician when they say to themselves, I am no longer in the first group – I am in the second. I am going to stand by my talents and no longer gig for a “promoter” who doesn’t promote, I’m going to see that I am paid for my services, and I’m going to see what the consequences of this attitude really turn out to be.
Having made that decision some time ago, we have done many promoted gigs and plenty when we have hired a venue, brought in a sound guy and promoted ourselves, and generally the ones we have promoted ourselves have been more successful, because we’ve been able to do more than the traditional venue allows – but I would not class them as “pay to play”, even when we’ve lost money.
I think Vivien is absolutely spot on with her attitude that promoters (and “promoters”) should actually promote – and if they want a band on stage they should pay them. But I think the strongest action we can take is to have the confidence to just not play for those promoters. They will then end up with the client base they deserve.
March 4th, 2012 at 11:57
What’s the noise not only subscribe to ‘pay to play’ – Craig Reid is a dirty thief who has robbed many, many bands of their money. He leaves the venue with the money and claims it was an accident then never pays the money back. He has pissed off many musicians, sound guys and been barred from various venues. It’s unbelievable he’s still in operation.
March 4th, 2012 at 12:05
I’ve promoted gigs & always pay all the bands and keep them ‘watered’. Most of the times my gigs have been busy, sometimes not so but I’ll still pay even if it means me being out of pocket. Promoting is a gamble, sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn’t. I don’t promote to make money, I promote because I enjoy the build up to and the gig itself. I promote on the side, but I think alot of these ‘promoters’ do this full time and HAVE to make money.
I don’t agree with Sonic Bids. It’s daylight robbery. The way DF have things is fair, but on occasions I know for a fact some bands have sold alot more tickets than other bands but have been on first etc. I think it’d be much fairer to have support line up sorted by amount of tickets sold and not by location, poularity, or favoritism of band. Get me?
There’s alot of shoddy promoters out there who’ll just stick a Facebook event up (if you’re lucky) but there is also alot of promoters who will go the extra mile.
Trial & error!
March 4th, 2012 at 12:24
First comment is spot on. DF concerts and especially Craig Johnston are the worst example of how things should be done and is effectively another pay to play method. If bands put on their own gigs and made the same effort in promoting it as they do their King Tuts support slot, they’d make a healthy profit. DF expect grassroots artists to charge £7 to their fans to see them at King Tuts and DF take £4/the band take £3. A lot of bands that can’t get on supports for the next agency booked band in town, so bands will sell their tickets for £4 to get the DF recoup and the maximum audience as any less than 25 people and you won’t be asked back. Not only that but the band can’t play another show 30 days either side of the booked date at King Tuts, a term stipulated at the bottom of every one of Craig’s confirmed booking emails. You’d think the ticket deal would improve when a band headlines at King Tuts, but no, it is the same. One more thing to add is that Craig Johnston is not a promoter, King Tuts lists it’s events in some obvious places but I have never seen one cent of promotion from Craig through social media channels or otherwise. The bands do all of the promotion as they get the crazy idea that they might get asked to play T in the Park if they impress and show up with a big crowd. I’ve never seen more grand parents, parents and people that wouldn’t normally go to gigs at King Tuts shows. They are there just to support a family member/mate.
King Tuts discredits the Scottish music scene and Craig Johnston is not a positive character to work with. The bands these unlucky starry eyed bands support can never sell more than 10 tickets themselves but come away with a decent fee.
As for the bloggers that champion this venue, go learn an instrument.
March 4th, 2012 at 12:45
In defence of CJ – The times he has offered Tuts shows to the band(s) I work with they have all been great shows and a it’s been great to support a higher rep band. Following on from Tuts shows he has then offered great support shows for
a couple of DF Edinburgh shows.
The ticket deal is fair, you can make money if you want, some choose to sell to cover DF’s share and bring alot of people, this is what ‘we’ have done previously and the bands have had offers time and time again. It’s easy to make the money on merch sales.
It’s all about choice, we’ve chosen to build a gradual relationship with CJ/DF(hopefully) and they’ll have a good idea of how much pull the band have.
Eventually if you are at the right size/level then you can go back and ask CJ/DF for a headline, they’ll be taking a gabmle on you at this point. It might work it might not, so the ticket deal/fee will reflect this. If it works out and you fill the place then I’m pretty certain you’ll be doing alot more with Scotland’s biggest music promoter.
These debates/arguments are good craic. Keep it constructive and not personal eh!
March 4th, 2012 at 12:51
Great article Pop Cop,touching on a souring topic.
I’m not going to crawl up DF’s arse, King Tut’s is a prestige venue, & they don’t generally, ask bands to perform there.
They don’t need to! Bands should seriously question themselves, are they ready to play there, & digging further,
are they ready to move out of their own locality.& venture to other areas. It’s really all about building a fanbase, that always starts with uncles, cousins, & nextdoor neighbours. There is a certain culture shock when moving from local towns’ Friday & Saturday’s twice a week slots, to playing the chaos of city life, e.g. Glasgow’s 7 nights a week, I am being conservative then I suggest 20 venues, billing 5 bands per night. The competition isn’t really amongst the bands, it’s the venues, “get out of jail free cards” such as Free Entry, & Cheapest Pints, acting as static marketing tools. therefore for fee entry gigs, there is an onus on acts to bring some bodies with them. I don’t agree with Pay To Play gigs, but let’s pretend all the venue promoters got together & agreed for one week, to scrap pay to play (not entry fees) The venues would be virtually empty, & no one wants to play to an empty venue. There has to be some joint responsibility to attempt to bring people to ‘live’ gigs. I would be interested in reading any comments, perhaps there is an answer out there?
I don’t believe that Facebook marketing works in bring people away from their ISP’s to gigs in the real world, it’s just so easy to click a button saying you’re going to a gig!
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 12:53
I am going to completely defend Craig Johnston. He is an incredible example of someone that loves and commits himself to grass roots and new music. Having dealt with him on a professional and personal basis he is a credit. He is one of the people working for a dominant company that actually gives a flying fuck.
March 4th, 2012 at 12:59
So in other words you don’t find filling DFs pockets while you grow your fan base in the hope that they will ask you to play big shows? If anyone can add as to how CJ has “promoted” any of their gigs, it would make fantastic reading..
March 4th, 2012 at 13:01
Duggie – Aye both parties have to pro-active in getting people along. A band can’t expect to turn up and have a ready made crowd. They need to work to get people along. I’ve had many a band turn up, I’ve offered them a guestlist place for each band member and they can’t even fill that! I’ll never put em on again.
The promoter also can’t expect to just stick up a listing or a facebook event and sit back expecting the band to pull alot of people.
It’s a two way game, and if one party isn’t pulling their weight then it’s a lose/lose. If both parties are clued up and recognise what is required then everyone is a winner.
Halina – Here here!
March 4th, 2012 at 13:03
And the glorious Halina Rifai chips in..
She even has Glasgow Podcart listed as “Public Figure” on Facebook. I guess they haven’t introduced the “Head up my arse” option yet.
Not a public figure I’m afraid. A common person like many and works in a call centre.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:05
If you walk around Edinburgh/Glasgow you’ll find plenty of posters from those at DF. The headline act will be in the big letters, and the support will be in the smaller letters. STANDARD.
You open The Skinny or The List etc you see all these gig listings/ads from DF. Same as the posters.
You get weekly emails from gigsinscotland – That’s DF.
I’m pretty certain CJ’s title is assistant booker and not promoter. DF as a whole is the promoter and as above, they do promote.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:05
Duggie Kyle, is this the same guy that anonymously adds folk on social networks and then pesters them??
March 4th, 2012 at 13:13
Sonicbids , the next generation “Pay to maybe Play”
Ive never quite got my head round how someone sitting in an office in Seattle or wherever it is , is in a better position to choose the most suitable acts to play a festival in Inverness ( for example) .
March 4th, 2012 at 13:17
Anonymous – stop trolling and p** off please, this is an interesting question and you’re stopping anyone talking about it properly. And if you’re going to public name halina and craig at least use your name when you do it.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:25
Also – I hate sonicbids, but you misunderstand how it works. Nobody in Seattle makes the decision, they just host your EPK and administrate the submissions process to e.g. GoNorth (seeing as we’re talking Inverness) or sxsw etc. It’s the guys in Inverness that receive the EPKs and make the decision.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:28
I went to see local band the coffins at the bay in glasgow on friday and the place was packed and I gather all bands got paid, this is the 3rd time in a row i’ve seen this band and every time its been a full house, I gather their main man joe bone takes nothing to do with dodgy promoters and they have managed to build a good following. So who keeps their eye on the local scene ? who decides to contact bands from Tuts to offer bands decent support slots? I for one would like to see the coffins on a bigger stage but not sure the they would except anything what so ever that was a rip off. So I gather these promoters are contacting bands that have stars in their eyes with the carrot of playing the prestigious (ahem) king tuts or those bands who contact them and answer the question “how many folk do you think you can get to attend?)with a tasty number, then as quoted earlier sell the tickets for no profit margin to the band what so ever just to give the promoter his cut (ripping yourself off just shows how much u value your own band and reaks of desperation I think !) I’ve never been a musician but I do like my music I follow the local music scene and I cant remember it being better and with so many bands around there will be the wolves waiting to cash in.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:29
Hector, My apologies Im the anon who posted on Sonicbids and Im not the same anon who posted the comments you object to, so to make things clearer I’ll post under AB from now on.
Im still not clear what “administrate the submissions process” entails. Can you or anyone else clarify ?
March 4th, 2012 at 13:30
I refer to my comment above
March 4th, 2012 at 13:35
Sorry! My mistake!
As far as I understand it, you put your info on the sonicbids site and then at the submissions deadline they fwd to the promoter – e.g. GoNorth – all of the EPK’s for the bands that are asking to play at that fest or whatever it is. The promoter selects them on the basis of their EPK and then responds through sonicbids as to their success or not.
I’m not a promoter so I don’t know what it’s like behind the scenes, but that’s the basic idea – which means 2 things as far as I can see:
1. You can rest assured that your decision is being made in Inverness
2. If you are being asked to pay £30, or even £10 for the submission, you are being ripped off, because essentially the same thing could be achieved by emailing the promoter with a link to your website and them emailing you back. I know some promoters who use sonicbids, and they are not evil people at all, but to *exclusively* accept approaches for bookings this way strikes me as insane.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:40
Sonic Bids get £/$ 1 for each submission. The promoter gets the rest. They also decide on what act to pick for the ‘Sonic Bid slots’ that they decide to stick up.
There was once a ‘dodgey’ promoter from England, he did a few multi-venue ‘festivals’ up here, he also did a few down there. I spoke to him a few times and apparently he used Sonic Bids and that he’d charge £10 per submission. He had over 200 applicants, and only had a couple of Sonic Bid band slots.
Sonic bids ‘stole’ £200, and he ‘stole’ £1,800.
I think the GoNorth guys refund the application fee if you’re not selected. That’s pretty fair, it’s only a couple of quid anyways.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:43
Your second point is exactly what I think about this process. Now this is just my opinion and I might be wrong but I would think that the acts who end up playing these festivals are the acts who are already making a name for themselves on the live scene already and would be very likely to be playing these gigs anyway with or without the Sonicbid middleman.
March 4th, 2012 at 13:47
I am the anonymous poster Hector is referring to. I’ll name my posts from now on. I never usually comment on here but this article got my back up so much, I just had to. I apologise for the personal comments but they are founded on the basis that these people pitch themselves to be superior to anyone else. I too have heard good reports about The Coffins but DF would never proactively approach bands. They pick the best of the “beggars” and pair them with a headline of a specific genre. I doubt CJ would book The Coffins as they don’t fit the age bill for Tuts. CJ, prove me wrong…
March 4th, 2012 at 13:52
Hi Anon, I am Duggie Kyle on Facebook, I have quite a few friend, which would not be the case if i was pestering them,
I have no problem with either DF or Craig Johnston, Craig has given me slots @ King Tuts.
I don’t agree in playing a ‘blame game’ or slagging off individual or company promoters.
Shouldn’t we instead discuss ideas of better systems
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 14:03
**COMMENT DELETED ON ACCOUNT OF “MARK” BEHAVING LIKE A DICK**
March 4th, 2012 at 14:09
I don’t really understand how my job or weight has anything to do with the discussion of gig promoters. Thanks though I will take this on board when I attend the Captains Rest next.
Back to the subject in hand I think people should focus on the positives as well and cite people such as Chris Cusack, Kenny Bates, Cry Parrot and more in terms of excellent promoters.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:14
+1 Halina! – a few people have outed some good venues on the FB thread. Chris Cusack is a gentleman and a scholar, as is Brian Reynolds. There are plenty of good people out there.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:17
Hi Duggie,
No disrespect. The only reason I made that comment was because you had added me anonymously and I’d seen a few of your posts in various groups. I’d also seen you attack a few individuals in an irritating Capital Letter For Every Word Sentence Manner. Thanks for dropping this approach and having a more constructive manner online. (I think I saw you learn that lesson). Honestly, I don’t have a problem with you as you seem to have good intent. My problem is with the popularity gang who lack credibility.
I’m all for looking at more positive systems for gig promotion.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:21
I have used Sonicbids in the past, the original concept was, if there were submission fees, only serious acts would apply for gigs, rather than annual tzunamis for performance slots.
I have had numerous successes with Sonicbids, but far more failures, so I would suggest, if using them, be selective in gigs that you apply for, about 80% are in The States & Worldwide. Reverbnation aren’t that much different, you pay a yearly subscription to use their EPK service & charge for individual submissions ranging from $10-$30, some are free, but you need to subscribe for the EPK service. Musicxray although free subscription charges acts who want to submit to anything from ‘live’ gigs to Major Labels. So this form of pay to submit is not going away, & no one is forced to do it, anyway
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 14:23
Joe – I would be more than happy to discuss this over email. If at any point we have made you feel like we are more important than our own worth then I apologise. It is definitely something that we try not to do. You can email me at halina@glasgowpodcart.com if you feel the need.
Hector – I am just having a look now. There are countless ones. It is refreshing, it is what makes Glasgow brilliant at times.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:29
Halina, I don’t see what weight or job has to do with it either but if you are going to subtitle yourself as a “Public Figure”, you are sending out the wrong message. “Blog” or “website” would be more accurate as that is what you are, not a celebrity. Personally, I think your blog/podcast is filled with some crap music and missing a lot of other quality, but you have the right to your opinion and your own web space, just like everyone else.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:29
No problem, Joe,
I post in music groups, but not so much plying gigs,
it took me awhile to deal with capitals, lol
duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 14:33
Joe – I would be more than open to suggestions so feel free to email me. If you feel we are missing artists that should be played/featured etc then let me know. I will change the title accordingly on Facebook.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:43
Duggie – yes it would be unfair to single out sonicbids as worse than any of the many others providing the service… however: ” So this form of pay to submit is not going away, & no one is forced to do it, anyway”.
Well, no you are not forced to use it, but promoters, particularly festival promoters, are doing themselves a disservice by only accepting sonicbids “submissions”, so for many important gigs you *are* forced to use them. It’s a shame because:
1. These festivals are limiting themselves to booking artists that only come through one of two streams: Agency artists and Sonicbids artists (plus, I suppose, people they know themselves). The sonicbids EPK is customisable but is still very “band-y” and for those of us who consider ourselves to exist at a bit of an angle to the mainstream of independent music it is a pretty useless format.
2. The whole attitude of sonicbids adds to the general feeling that a life in music is one long competitive process of SUBMISSIONS! and OPPORTUNITIES! and TARGETS! and TRIUMPHS! which is truly depressing and completely irrelevant to what I and a lot of people I know love about music. A lot of us are quite happy to make music and try and sell recordings of it and do gigs without spending our time either chasing major labels or entering ourselves into glorified battle of the bands nights sponsored by phone companies. We don’t want to SUBMIT or ENTER, we want to discuss with promoters whether or not they would like to book us to perform, and I know that some promoters are missing out on some great music (and I’m not talking about myself…:))
March 4th, 2012 at 14:43
wow I think someone needs to learn that ad hominem is the last refuge of the rotter and that the moment one has to resort to it they’ve lost any argument they may have had. How incredibly pathetic and small of you. Everyone says things they regret on the internet but if you were any kind of human being “Mark” you’d come back here and apologise, cowardly not to.
And seeing as I am being an armchair analyist I’ve never noticed anything but complete professionalism with either Halina or Craig. You may not agree with the music they write about or promote so…why not go do it yourself instead of moaning about it ? They both have.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:44
not anonymous, sorry forgot to post name there.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:46
I don’t want to distract you all from hating Halina and calling her fat, which is clearly a very worthwhile public service and entirely worth both your time bothering to write it down and our time reading it, but… well, I was hoping to talk about promoting gigs a bit if that’s okay with everyone.
I’ve been putting on gigs regularly for a couple of years now, so my experience is limited, but I don’t think that there is ever any need to accept a pay-to-play gig.
None of our bands have ever had a problem with DF either, I have to say, but if you don’t like them then don’t play their gigs. You may want to play King Tut’s but it’s their venue. No band has a divine right to play there if they’re popular enough, it’s like saying I SHOULD release your stuff on Song, by Toad Records if lots of people bought your CD-R.
There are plenty of good venues in Glasgow where you can put on your own shows – if you have enough of a fanbase and can be bothered putting up posters, emailing the List, the Skinny and the blogs who write weekly listings, and then handing out flyers in the rain outside gigs for a few weeks then you will unquestionably make more money that way.
The difficulty with low level gigs (like the ones I put on) is that once you factor paying bands, hiring the place, posters, rider and all that into things then there just isn’t enough money being made to cover it all. So one way or another everyone is going to feel short-changed, which is why I recommend working with someone you like and trust – you won’t resent it as much that way.
Promoters can get a bit jaded with bands because half the time bands have a habit of assuming that if the place is busy it’s because of them, so they deserve all the money, and then if it’s empty it’s because the promoter’s shit, so they should shoulder all the loss – you can’t have it both ways lads.
Mind you half the time the promoter does fuck all and then weasels out of paying what they described as ‘guarantees’, leaving bands absolutely high and dry, and as a friend of mine once said ‘as a band, promoters fuck you over more than ANYONE else’.
We lost about £1000 in 2011 by coming good on guarantees when gigs were half-empty, so sometimes when promoters are being cheap cunts it’s not the loss on that one gig, it’s about the cumulative loss over many which scares them, and they are right to be scared – it adds up very fast.
So my advice is to never accept pay to play – it is for charlatans, chancers and bandits and no-one else. Play for someone honest, who you trust, accept that getting people to the gig is a mutual responsibility and do your best. But don’t be surprised if even after all that the money’s still crap. It just is at this level and there’s really not that much you or I can do about it.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:47
P.S. Yes, Sonicbids is a fucking rip-off and I fucking hate it. Here’s ten pounds to tell me to fuck off – I don’t think so! Mind you it can’t always be avoided, and we have had some good results out of it, but I still resent the chiselling bastard rip off process.
P.P.S. Something mean about Halina.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:49
Mark your comments are hurtful and totally unncessary. I know how I would have felt if someone had attacked me personally like that – it would have made me upset and possibly even shed a tear that someone could be so cruel. What exactly was it you were trying to achieve with your post? To make Halina cry? Try and humiliate her, or make her feel incredibly shit about herself? This equates to cyber bullying and is 100% not acceptable.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:50
I’ll also defend Craig Johnston and DF. Any problem I’ve ever had with any of their shows has been nothing to do with the booking/promotion end of it. As far as I’m aware, Craig’s the booker of the Tuts shows, so do you really expect him to be tweeting constantly about every single show he books (which is a fucking lot)? When a band plays supports at Tuts the listings are everywhere, and because of the collaborative nature of the ticket deal each band on the bill tends to bring enough people, meaning all those people together turns into a large crowd.
As for the original article, I think it’s fair, while the promoter is the solely most responsible for promoting, to expect just a wee bit of help from the acts themselves, as they’re the one with access to their entire fanbase and as such the most relevant demographic.
If I’m the promoter, I expect myself to cover listings, social media, postering and talking to local press about the gig, but, especially with smaller bands, then the people who are most likely to come see them live are the ones already following them, so it’s not unreasonable to expect them to talk about it a bit. A few tweets from them can sometimes be the same as a few days of hard work from the promoter.
But, to be clear, that’s just an etiquette thing, it’s never right, even if the band do zero promotion, for them to be punished financially or otherwise for it (although I like to work together with bands, not for them, so probably wouldn’t book them again). I think a lot of bookers like to call themselves promoters because it’s a cooler name.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:54
Well done ‘Mark’ (extra hard man marks for not including a second name) for completely undermining any sensible point you could have made, but clearly avoided. Congratulations for wading in on a useful discussion with a mindless and entirely unnessecary personal attack. I feel angry with myself for even wasting those few words on you. Go eat those chips off your shoulder.
Back to the actual discussion, though I have been out of the Glasgow loop for a little while but having worked as a performer, journalist, editor, PR and promoter, I think it fair to say there are crooks in each of the disciplines.
It’s indicitive of any ‘business’ sadly – wherever money is involved art gets warped generally. To get bodies in the door you need to market effectively, you can write the best songs in the world but if nobody hears them, how are you going to attract a crowd. I think it’s fair to say there are lazy bands who rely on the booker or venue’s prestige to build head count without being proactive and there are bookers who, happy with their PTP insurance policy are happy to let bands do the work. The problem with that is that is that the bands may not have access to the knowledge required about channels to exploit and how to build a brand – arguably they should be concentrating on their songs and the show which, however depressingly, is the ‘product’ being sold.
To end on a positive, I’m not sure how much he does these days, but one of the best promoters we worked with, certainly in terms of looking after the interests of acts, is Steve from Flowers In The Dustbin, who works hard to promote the music he believes in, signing those who he likes to his own DIY label.
Further South, where I now live, in Southampton I have come across a really inspirational character called Luke Leighfeild, kind of Southampton’s answer to Ben Folds who does everything himself. He has self-released and distributed 4 albums of his own, and some of his friends under Got Got Need records, toured the world off his own back, taken countless risks based on the faith in his own music. It can be done. Bands take note.
March 4th, 2012 at 14:57
As Hamish said, this is spot on:
“If I’m the promoter, I expect myself to cover listings, social media, postering and talking to local press about the gig, but, especially with smaller bands, then the people who are most likely to come see them live are the ones already following them, so it’s not unreasonable to expect them to talk about it a bit. A few tweets from them can sometimes be the same as a few days of hard work from the promoter.
But, to be clear, that’s just an etiquette thing, it’s never right, even if the band do zero promotion, for them to be punished financially or otherwise for it (although I like to work together with bands, not for them, so probably wouldn’t book them again).”
March 4th, 2012 at 15:02
And agreeing re: Matthew^^^^, the bottom line is bands need to try their best to not accept pay to play in any case, no matter how much they may think they need the gig. Solidarity innit. If I put on a gig and there’s a low turn out, the acts still did me a massive favour in playing the show so I still owe them just as much money as if it was packed.
March 4th, 2012 at 15:03
Oh dear, so very sad when “Mark” and “AB” use a credible debate to make personal attacks against someone who has their own right to do whatever she likes for her own website/podcast/blog. Halina is entitled to her own opinions just as you are but Mark especially you don’t need to be an absolute arsehole by being so cruel. You should be ashamed of yourself…be a man and take part in a debate by forming an opinion (if your brain cells can handle that) without attacking someone else. Apologies for taking up this feed without having anything constructive to say about the debate but I have no time for bullies. Sickens me.
March 4th, 2012 at 15:04
Hi Hector, you’re spot on!
I think Go North already know who they want to play,without Sonicbids & I believe they advertise on the submission page how many sonicbid slots are available, I would assume there are over 1,000 bands apply each year now, it certainly drive home the fact that the music industry is a business, in fact the latest music biz money spinner begins with ‘Unsigned’ whether it be submission fees, pay to play, or even promotions that tap into bands’ fanbase mailing lists
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 15:11
Duggie, thats a fair point about the latest music biz money spinner. Truth is the music business is on its knees as far as the old business model is concerned but maybe that’s for another discussion thread.
March 4th, 2012 at 15:24
The practise of referring to independent artists as “unsigned” is completely redundant, and also presumptuous.
March 4th, 2012 at 15:37
No personal jibes,it detracts from why we are here!
I see solutions to the Pay To Play problem, coming to light.
Why not list recommendations of the good promoter, so bands won’t need to rely on the dodgy ones.
that would be a great incite for bands to follow, we can all escalate, everywhere!
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 15:51
Sorry – nothing personal meant, if that was for me!
There were some recommendations further up – Chris at Bloc, some people at Brel, Brian at the Arches, the legendary Findlay at Hazy Recollections – outside Glasgow, Steve at Hootenanny’s and the guys at The Market Bar in Inverness are good people. The crew who run The OBI and the Insider in Aviemore are examples to us all. In Edinburgh, Haight Ashbury Love Music and Unpeeled are tremendous nights, run by people who really do promote – Clair at Henry’s also works to make gigs good. Of course, if you choose to gig further up the west coast and the islands you will be drowned in hospitality, good will and beer…
March 4th, 2012 at 15:57
I was having a great wee Sunday there, football and cups of tea! haha
MB, Halina, Hamish, Matthew and a few other have answered the main points against against me but to the person who wonders what I do to promote the shows I put on…. You should check out the thing called the King Tut’s Flyer, there are a few out there don’t think you’ll have trouble finding one! haha
Great point though about bands getting a more beneficial split the more tickets they sell I’ll put that to the powers above.
We are always looking for ways to make it fairer for bands, but if anyone has any ideas please email me craig@dfconcerts.co.uk
Cheers guys!
March 4th, 2012 at 16:32
I really wanted to contribute something to this discussion but have since decided against it. A truely interesting issue and so important to musicians has been completely ruined for me by personal attacks and stupidity.
What are people’s thoughts, and Pop Cop’s on moderating comments/deleting plain hateful messages?
I totally believe in free speach but when it turns actual discussion into a “hate” forum instead I think you’ll find most people get bored and turn off… I know I have.
March 4th, 2012 at 16:35
No Hector, wasn’t directed at you, btw, I have copied your recommendations with thanks
If there are any more feel free to fire away, this is more constructive
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 16:42
Hi DanS, a thread is only as good as the people that
input to it, I’ve learned something today, thanks to Hector’s recommends
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 16:43
Playing tuts is about playing tuts. If you want to make money, go do a dry hire at stereo. If you want it play tuts for your cv then do that. Love it or hate it many bands and more importantly fans see tuts as a right of passage in the Scottish scene. My advice is just be ready to play it. If you cannot shift 25 tickets for a tuts show then just don’t do it. Lest not forget DF is a business that needs to make money, keep people employed etc… And they are entitled to do so with impunity. I have done 11 shows at tuts with 3 different bands, 8 of which sold out. Every time we have been looked after and well treated. And dare I say it, well paid on some occasions. All these bands were “unsigned” too.
In defence of Craig, I think he does a great job, every band in Scotland things they are ready to play tuts. He has to be the one to decide. Sure I expect he might get it wrong now and again, but we all have a bad day at the office. He is a stand up guy and a wonderful lover!
March 4th, 2012 at 16:52
Comments should be moderated for personal abuse.
March 4th, 2012 at 16:59
If some of that stuff gets removed, I will not feel like anyone’s free speech has been infringed.
March 4th, 2012 at 17:10
It would be sad if people decline from posting because of a few comments, so let’s move on, & stay constructive
Duggie
March 4th, 2012 at 20:52
http://www.thecmuwebsite.com/article/eddy-says-nice-guys-finish-first-too/
March 4th, 2012 at 21:11
Samantha Bitch +infinity
March 4th, 2012 at 23:16
I’ve deleted Mark’s comment, it was completely out of order and not welcome. Sorry I wasn’t able to delete it sooner.
March 5th, 2012 at 02:19
Them Beatles never played for What’s That Noise/Craig Reed as they cancelled 2 days before the show with a very poor excuse. I never wanted to do it anyway. Load of SHITE.
March 5th, 2012 at 11:11
@CJ – where can I find these flyers? If they are sitting on the bar in King Tuts then that is not good enough.
I like the mention of Bloc who are excellent. I’ve been able to sit on the subway and go through their ads of everyone playing that month before I get to the city centre. Brilliant, didn’t need to lift up a flyer or magazine, something you wouldn’t buy if you can only make one or two gigs per month.
To be clear, it was the inaccurate statement that got my back up about the article:
“When DF Concerts book a local act to play at, say, King Tut’s, they usually use a ticket deal which splits the revenue two ways. However, unlike pay-to-play promoters, DF never set a minimum amount that an act must give them before they can go on stage, so there is no repercussions for musicians when it comes to ticket sales, at least not financially.”
Yes, but DF are expecting at least £100 (£4 x 25 people) back or you are not asked to play again. The term about not booking a show 30 days either side of the show also annoys me as it should be down to the band/manager if they feel they can sell for both shows in a month.
Yes, there is money to be made. I just think that there should be other ways looked at doing it. £7 is too dear for a ticket and the drink prices match. I would go to Tuts more often if it was £5 at the door and the ticket price was evenly split.
Good article, good topic, bad example.
March 5th, 2012 at 13:47
I find it incredible how stories like this go up on Pop Cop which are good topics and good points of discussion and people get so personal in the comments. I think everyone should concentrate on the topic in hand and not on how people like Craig and Halina (who are NOT in this industry to make a fortune but do it for the love of music) get torn apart. I’ve had my fair share of it over the years and I’m sure there is plenty more to come but it’s quite pathetic really. I have seen quite a few of these in Scotland now and it seems to be worse than anywhere else in the country. Why is everyone hating so much recently? The music industry is a tough place to survive and if you are so angry about it all that it leads you to personally attacking people maybe you shouldn’t be involved in music at all.
March 5th, 2012 at 16:06
First up, Halina is laid-back and outgoing, and I imagine its those qualities which inspire the bad reactions from chumps who have probably achieved the square root of eff-all during their grumpy wee existences.
Moving onwards to the topic, this is the article that I think has needed written for a few years. If I could offer some constructive criticism to The Pop Cop, I would say that I think he has merely scratched the surface of the various deals that are out there.
Slagging Tuts is mostly irrelevant – some bands see it as a rite of passage and shall pay accordingly. Other bands are opting to try to progress outside the DF framework (the Errors, the Kid Canaverals etc).
However the important points about Tuts that I think The Pop Cop may have missed, are:
1. The DF (and PCL) stranglehold over “the scene” makes people like myself (and probably many other independent promoters) very nervous about guaranteeing fees for gigs. How do I know the band isn’t going to accept a guarantee of, say, £75, but bring nobody because they are pushing everybody towards their Tuesday night gig at Tuts 3 weeks later? I don’t!
2. Is dragging your neighbours and uncles and work pals to your Tuesday night gig in Tuts to pay £7 to see 4 local bands likely to encourage any of them to repeat the experience, or go to anything else you invite them to in the future? I expect not…
More generally, in his post above about promoting and promotion Matthew (Song by Toad) has stated many views which I share. I run a monthly club night with live bands and I either pay bands an agreed fee or try to see them alright via a door split. Over 8 years of various events I must have paid around 50 different bands £100 or more (I see £100+ as a very healthy fee – perhaps that will raise howls of protest, I don’t know). During that time I think I have fallen out with less than 5 bands about cash. They generally weren’t nice people and if it hadn’t been cash it would have been something else.
Being in a local band or being a local promoter isn’t going to make anybody rich, so let’s just all try to get along.
D.
ps I had a very strange episode a while back where I was told that the ex-drummer of The Phantom Band was claiming at some party or other that they weren’t paid the agreed (pretty decent) fee for a Pin Ups gig they played 2008. When I caught up with the ex-drummer in question he said he had just been joking. Bizarre, but it indicates what you can be up against.
March 5th, 2012 at 19:22
2 points, especially to joe d
1. If you cannot sell 25 tickets for a big Glasgow show, you are in the wrong game. 4-5 people should have 25 mates between them to come see them play. So you are correct. You probably will not be invited back. And rightly so.
2. Playing 30 days either side of a gig in the same town it totally amateur. You are right, it should be up to the manager / band to decide. But anybody with any idea about this knows it’s not good for the venue but more importantly for the band. Don’t do it. Tuts obviously feel they need to state this as some people clearly don’t get it. However for me, it’s a total no briainer. (I’ll caveat this but saying there are a few very rare exceptions)
March 5th, 2012 at 21:32
I firmly beleve bands, particularly in the early days need to play frequently in order to improve. Its not enough just to rehearse as playing live takes them to another level in the same way a footballer needs match fitness on top of his regular training to get to the top of his game. This inevitably means playing for free on occassions because you cant expect your 25 mates and your Aunties to attend every gig you play.
In my opinion too many people fail to appreciate this point as they are not seeing things from the bands point of view.
On the other hand too many bands are trying to run before they can walk as there is no point in accepting gigs at bigger venues if you cant draw a crowd. I include Tuts in that category.
March 5th, 2012 at 21:54
Great article however I am also confused about the end part as DF is certainly not a good example of how it should be done. The Oasis connection, the `promise` of T in the Park and the threat of never playing again if you sell less than 25 with a huge cut going to the venue seems a bit unfair to me and many others.
If you go to other venues direct they`ll pretty much give you the full ticket money or a fee and make their side on the bar.
(e.g- roxys, pivo, the bay , bloc and possibly even 13th note)
This is not meant as a dig to the mighty DF (or a slate at Craig who i feel does a great job) just a mere observation of bewilderment as to why they have been highlighted as the good guys when there is many other venues and independent promoters who work a lot harder and fairer with less resources at their fingertips
March 6th, 2012 at 00:41
“the threat of never playing again if you sell less than 25 with a huge cut going to the venue seems a bit unfair to me and many others.”
The reason for this is simply that they are a professional organisation with staff to pay. I would wager you’d find a good few instances where bands who attracted few fans have still been asked back, just because the booker believes in them, although I personally don’t know of course. But I bet it happens all the time.
People like myself can afford to take a hit, just as bars can, because we are trying to make money elsewhere, be it selling shots of Aftershock to students or LPs to weirdos with turntables.
DF and PCL make their money promoting gigs and nothing else, which means whether or not a band draws a crowd is massively significant to them.
You wouldn’t expect to release your album on a label, sell five copies, and then be asked back would you?
March 6th, 2012 at 00:43
P.S. This thread is fun, cheers Pop Cop!
March 6th, 2012 at 02:53
Well said Jen.
“comment removed for mark acting like a dick” best bit of board admin I’ve ever seen. *tips hat
An interesting read, but at the end of the day none of us are owe anything from anyone, and we can choose to accept or refuse offers of gigs really.
If you like what you do I assume that you’ll keep going regardless if you got a gig at sainsburys or the Albert hall, or some birds living room your trying to impress.
Good luck to you all, and thanks for the entertaining thread.
March 6th, 2012 at 15:40
GBear & AB
referring to your last posts, you are both correct in what you say, & you are both speaking about the same bands, but, just different levels in their rites of passage.
AB – When young bands are starting off they need to play anywhere & everywhere, to learn the art of performing, building up confidence, & importantly forging ability to turn a crowd. This is the apprenticeship time, not for charging £7 a ticket, covering travel being a perfect compromise.
GBear – When bands are ready to move to the next level, quality of gigs surpasses quantity. The required onus becomes turning less & more selective gigs into actual events (I don’t mean Facebook events). Playing less gigs allows more time to promote, & market each consecutive gig in it’s own right. There is no reason why 5 in a band can’t bring 10 people each, in the beginning, & no reason why (after their slot) a band can’t interact with a crowd, collecting email addresses, at each gig, & build a fanbased mailing list,to send out info on the next gig, & so forth, one gig at a time. This is when bands start to learn about the business aspect of music, will earn more money, & will gain higher profile gigs, justified by the bodies they can bring.
I really wish King Tuts would bring back, ‘Your Sound’ & invite guest speakers & distribute info hand outs on all these aspects.You only miss the importance of these things, when they’re gone!
Duggie
March 6th, 2012 at 16:39
I think everything Anthony says echoes what I’m saying. (and funnily enough Oasis were never booked the night they played and were seen by Alan McGee, apparently there were less than 25 people there too, haha).
I certainly wouldn’t play a gig if I didn’t think my band could pull 25 people regardless of which venue I was playing.
What I dislike is that DF will book a headliner that will shift less than 10 tickets in some instances, yet the headliner will walk away with a decent fee.
If a band (does the usual) and sells their ticket at £4 each to cover the DF split, they make nothing. If they sell the minimum amount of tickets at £5 and it is a 50/50 ticket split, they walk away with £62.50 which would at least cover band travel and a few expenses. The bar at Tuts isn’t cheap either.
Every gig I’ve been to at tuts is usually a healthy turn out (70-80) per support band (remember you might get asked to play T in the Park if you bring a big crowd).
In these instances the bands should be walking away with over £150 which is a decent fee, instead they leave with nothing but can put King Tuts down on the CV.
It is night and day from ethical promoting/booking and that is why I feel the article is inaccurate. DF appears to be milking the unsigned/independent artist cash cow to an outsider.
March 6th, 2012 at 17:08
Joe, if Oasis had followed your advice about never playing a gig unless they could pull at least 25 people regardless of the venue then they would never have played Tuts the night McGee saw them and the rest is history as they say.
Just goes to show there are no hard and fast rules.
March 6th, 2012 at 18:49
Joe D – I can’t comment about Oasis not being billed for that King Tut’s gig, but they were well known to turn up, on speck, & push for a last minute slot, (not many bands do that now)
I can confirm on that day I had a pre-arranged A&R appointment with Alan, at Creation, in London, he had cancelled all his meetings & rushed up to Glasgow, so I can only assume there was an A&R race on.
regards comments posted about DF & Craig, they are both successful in what they do, but success is built on past failures.
The Marquee Club in London was by far the most prestigious venue in the UK, (I booked 2 bands there)
But it died, although they booked some of the UK & worlds’ top acts, & had a reputation for excellence dating back to the 1960′s, It just wasn’t doing the business.
In the past I have booked 40 date UK tours, which for economical reasons, had to be organised at least 5-6 months ahead, mainly booking Thurs, Fri, Sat & Sundays in a row, normally venues within 50-100 miles from each other.
Touring bands rely on fixed fees to be able to budget a tour (van hire, petrol, food, B&b’s)so if promoters like DF weren’t booking touring bands, there would only be the same local & regional bands, week in week out, & that would slowly fade, rather than build a clientele.
No one suggests to bands to sell their tickets @ promoter price, but we are all guilty of it, we’re basically renting a crowd which is a false economy,
real fans would not question the £7.00!
Duggie
March 6th, 2012 at 22:02
@AB – Touring and blagging your way on to gigs is entirely different. You’re never going to confidently pull 25+ people in a location you’ve never played before on your first couple of tours. I’m talking about playing gigs at a local level when I say I wouldn’t play any gig where I didn’t expect to pull 25+ people. The point is that these bands that support go away with nothing which is a sign of little support for Scottish acts from DF. Then again there is always T Break (sigh…)
March 6th, 2012 at 22:12
And @Duggie, I’m not saying touring bands should not get a set fee as this is indeed required to budget for a tour. What I’m pointing out is that you are in a better position if you are booked from outside Scotland than you are compared to being from Scotland and taking a support slot. I’m also pointing out that it is the same ticket deal if a Scottish band do a headlining slot at tuts, there is no fee compared to an out of town band. Thus conclusively pointing out that DF/Tuts was a bad example to use in an article highlighting how gigs should be promoted in Scotland.
March 7th, 2012 at 00:33
i’ve never found tut’s ticket deal particularly fair, but it seems to work for some bands so good on them. when i first started playing gigs in glasgow ten years ago there was less choice of venues than there is now… tuts justifiably was seen as a progressive step after building a crowd in the note and sleazy’s. the ticket split deal stuck in the craw but there was no choice- if you wanted to step up to a larger, more professional venue it had to be tut’s. rapidly though new venues started opening, first barfly, then the old stereo…. now there is a huge number of venues to choose from and bands are no longer having to jump through hoops to satisfy bookers at one or two “super cool” venues. In fact we are arguably at a point of venue saturation in Glasgow! bands can build a crowd without needing to do a tut’s ticket split if they so choose. i think if you look at the general type of local band going through tut’s these days, they tend to be very young & inexperienced. there’s nothing wrong with that but the vibe amongst slightly more experienced musicians generally is- why go through the hassle of a ticket deal when its just as easy to book a similar venue for a fee and run it ourselves? after a couple of shots at tuts (for the CV) bands quickly realise they’re better off elsewhere. as for t-break, good luck to everyone who enters. my old band made the heats one year and weren’t picked. the next year we signed to a well-known indie and got through to t-break without ever playing a heat. tuts is an industry-linked venue, which means that with industry backing, you’ll be treated well- food, fee and a pat on the back. without it, you’re just numbers on a bottom line. i don’t want to aggravate craig or anyone at tuts, this is just the way it is and has been for at least a decade, i’m sure none of this is news to anyone really. the fact is we are lucky in glasgow to have so many great venues to choose from so bands- choose wisely! write good tunes! and good luck. tom
March 7th, 2012 at 01:07
Joe D – Fair point, but there are exceptions to every rule,
I know I’m digging deep historically, 1996/97 I booked The Gin Goblins into King Tut’s, for a set fee, not a ticket deal, but to be fair, that was backed up with a double page spread in the Glasgow Herald, & the article was a far cry from The Sun’s front page, grave robbing publicity stunt,
.
March 8th, 2012 at 10:06
@Duggie – Publicity stunt?
March 8th, 2012 at 23:10
Joe D – contrived nonsense!
March 9th, 2012 at 14:12
Your inclusion of King Tuts as an example of the way things should be done is a joke. Are you aware that Live Nation & SJM own over 90% of DF Concerts (consequently King Tuts)? So here we are talking about a billion dollar company yet any act playing their 2-4 week long Summer Nights or New Years Revolution (great plan by them to fill two of the quietest months of the year for gigs) are on a ticket deal of £6 with £4 going to Tuts and £2 to the band. Most bands quite clearly feel £6 is overpriced for a local showcase seeing as they sell the tickets for £4 and I would agree. So £4 for every attendee (and that’s quite a lot as bands get every friend and family member out to impress believing they’ll get a good support slot from it) and ALL bar takings goes to Tuts? Does that sounds like a fair deal to The Pop Cop?
March 15th, 2012 at 20:55
Ive just come across this website, great place. Some very interesting articles. Anyways ive been gigging with my band for a couple of years now and met a varying degree of good and bad promoters. It can be frustrating with the pay to play gigs and in many times we just cut our loses and played somewhere like the box where at least you know its gonna be a busy bar,
On another point we were a while back offered to play King tuts by Craig Reid. Dont know the guy personally but he seems to do a lot with the local scene, good or bad I cant tell. Anyway we were offered a support slot on a Monday night where tix were £12 a head!! Now although we have a reasonable local fan base there is no way in hell we could get folk down for that price. Its far too expensive for a local band on a feckin monday. Dont know many bands that could do that!
March 15th, 2012 at 21:01
Sorry thats meant to say Craig Johnston not Reid!!
March 29th, 2012 at 23:24
Craig Reid (What’s The Noise) is an absolute scumbag. Stole our door money after promoting a gig that we brought a big crowd into. Wee dick left before we got a hold of him. Wouldn’t return phone calls, texts or emails. Never got the money.
April 18th, 2012 at 06:14
This man is a complete joke of a promoter.. Avoid him like the plague.
What does “Whats The Noise” mean anyway? It requires at least question mark and apostrophe before making any sense whatsoever.
Craig has the attention to detail of a worm.
May 22nd, 2012 at 08:33
I know its a bit late but have you heard back from Craig Reid regarding this issue?. I’d be interested to hear his response.
July 25th, 2012 at 02:42
Aye- Craig got back and said he didnae gie a fuck and just wanted to make some $$$
February 20th, 2013 at 20:09
From a promoters perspective I feel there is something to be said here too.
Promotion is an expensive business. There are costs involved such as promotional material, sound, lights, venue hire and staffing, as well as the everyday business expenses such as heat, light, broadband and web hosting – not to mention the time it takes to do all of the above.
If you are booking established acts that pull a crowd your income is directly linked to how well you plan your events and most importantly how you PROMOTE your events. This is way it should be. Pay for the bands, do your job, everyone is happy!
If you are however booking ‘no namers’ you stand the chance of doing everything correctly, but still your bands play to an empty room and as a promoter you make a loss.
If you take a chance on booking new and unknown acts you need some way to be sure your hard work and expense is going to at least make your expenses back, and not leave you in debt.
Don’t get me wrong, play to play is often very exploited by promoters who seek to make their income from charging new bands and not from doing their job properly (promotion), but I feel bands also need to understand the economics of the business. If no one is going to pay to hear you play, how can you expect a promoter to embark on a costly exercise such as putting on a show just to give you a stage to stand on.
It’s a two way street, promoters need to plan effective events and promote well, however bands need to realise the costs are covered by people coming to see them.
I am both a Musician and a promoter btw. As a Musician I do not expect promoters to drum up a massive crowd and pay good money if no one knows who I am and does not want to pay to see me play. As a promoters I do not expect to sit on my ass and take musicians money for doing nothing.
March 19th, 2013 at 02:17
Hey guys just read everything great thread. I have been trying with my band for years, were called dirty sally. after bein accepted to play at king tuts the first time , we brought about 30 people, which is not enough when your playing there it’s just not… You want it to be full … So anyway they still asked us back , we couldn’t sell the same again , they made a loss on us prob and then and only then did Craig say go work on your fanbase . He gives you a fair shot. I’m learning every day about promoting the band. There’s no quick fix ever , but if you and your band work together professionally , do loads of gigs , compile email lists , send creative emails for gigs, get merch made, make videos record all the time etc, then eventually you will fill a king tuts sized venue.
And that’s the point, yea it’s about making money, but that’s why you don’t touch the more financially risky endeavours till you KNOW you can get people to your shows. If you can’t get 75 people to see u at king tuts then I’d say get workin on your fan base , god knows we can’t, but it’s down to us alone…. Or just go on x factor and forget why you are doing this in the first place …
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